Conversations
with Hubert Saint-Onge
Conflicting
Views on Training and CoPs
Hubert Saint-Onge
Senior
Vice President
Clarica Life Insurance
Canada
Synthesis by Chris
McGuire
Administrative
Manager
ReservoirTeam Ltd
Adelaide, Australia
Editor's
note:
This is a synthesis of the "Conversations with Hubert Saint-Onge"
held in May, 2002. The monthly STAR Series Dialogues are moderated
by world KM luminaries who volunteer to discuss topics in email
digests with AOK members over a two-week period.
Table of Contents (Click on list item to go
directly to each topic)
Part I: Communities
of Practice in Practice at Clarica
Part
I: Communities of Practice in Practice at Clarica
 Introducing Hubert Saint-Onge,
Deb Wallace
Jerry Ash, AOK chief executive:
For two weeks, members of the Association of Knowledgework (AOK)
are extremely fortunate to have Hubert Saint-Onge, senior vice
president, strategic capabilities, Clarica Life Insurance Company
of Canada and the U.S., as guest moderator of the STAR Series.
We also welcome his  colleague
at Clarica, Deb Wallace, with whom Hubert has just finished co-authoring
Leveraging Communities of Practice
for Strategic Advantage due to be published in September,
2002.
Hubert was a keynote
speaker at the 2002 AOK/Delphi Group Enterprise Learning and
Knowledge Exchange Summit in Palm Springs, California, which
ignited a spirited discussion at AOK regarding CoPs.
Hubert holds an
Honours BA in Political Science from York University and an MA
in Political Science with specialization in international economic
integration. He was previously vice president, learning organization
and leadership development for the Canadian Imperial Bank of
Commerce (CIBC). In his role at CIBC, he headed up the CIBC Leadership
Centre. His work over the past 20 years in large organizations
has focused on developing the full potential of human assets.
At Shell Canada he worked in a variety of positions at both the
business unit and corporate level.
In his current role
at Clarica, Hubert is responsible for the strategic integration
for business plans in people management systems, including the
technology architecture and infrastructure. One of the key elements
of his mandate is to facilitate the leveraging of the firms'
business through the systematic application of knowledge management
and learning organization principles.
Hubert has given
presentations across North America and Europe on organizational
learning, leadership development and knowledge value creation.
He has published a number of articles on these subjects and was
a member of the Board of the Canadian Centre for Management Development
from 1995 to 1999.
Introducing Deb Wallace
It is my honor to
introduce Deb Wallace who has co-authored Leveraging Communities
of Practice with Hubert Saint-Onge. The
final chapter of that book is in Hubert's AOK pages.
Deb has agreed to
join Hubert in this discussion. In her role as Learning Architect,
Deb is responsible for managing Clarica's learning blueprint
based on foundation elements of strategy, culture and values,
and technology. Working at the enterprise level, she consults
with business units to ensure alignment with corporate imperatives,
technology directions, and industry standards to provide state-of-the-art
learning solutions that increase individual and organizational
capabilities. Prior to her current role, Deb was the Project
Manager and Community Facilitator for The Agent Network, a community
of practice for Clarica agents Canada-wide. She was responsible
for the community project design and implementation, the evaluation
of the initial phase of the project, the facilitation of the
online discussion forum, and the development of a process model/best
practice case study.
Deb arrived at Clarica's
Knowledge Team with a wide range of experience in libraries,
public education (K- post secondary), and the private sector.
As Assistant to the Dean for Knowledge Management Initiatives
at the Faculty of Information Studies, University of Toronto,
Deb developed and implemented new programs that linked both information
and knowledge management with creating competitive advantages
for government and private sector organizations. It was in that
capacity that she met Hubert Saint-Onge and began applying her
research background to practice.
A frequent speaker
and lecturer on the benefits of "knowing what you know,"
Deb has co-authored a chapter on communities of practice in "In
Action: Measuring Intellectual Capital," American Society
of Training and Development (ASTD), 2002.
Deb holds a Bachelor
of Science (cum laude) from Moorhead State University, a Masters
in Education from the University of Manitoba, and a Ph.D. from
the University of Toronto. Her dissertation research focused
on the creation of a curriculum development model for professional
schools in higher education.
Of course, we welcome
you, Deb, with great enthusiasm. We look forward to your visit
here and hope you continue with us long after the "Conversations
with Hubert Saint Onge" are concluded.
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Customer Focus Bottom Line
at Clarica
Fred
Schoeps,
former IBM Corporate KM manager,
recalled that Hubert had been in management ranks with two
major Canadian insurance firms during the last ten years in each
case focused on learning and/or knowledge management. In his
role he also has gained strategic responsibility.
Fred posed three
questions: (followed respectively by Hubert's response)
Hubert Saint-Onge
noted that Fred should definitely get the award for having submitted
the "most comprehensive set of significant questions I have
ever had to answer. You may have in fact just framed up a book
on this subject!"
Hubert: Let
me try to answer these questions in as concise a manner as I
can for the moment."
I have been with
Clarica for almost six years. Prior to this, I was at CIBC which
is one of the largest Canadian banks for seven years. During
that time, I was responsible for the redesign of organization
and people management strategies and policies. I created and
ran the CIBC Leadership Centre for five years. Before this, I
was in Shell Canada, solidly anchored in the oil patch. It is
true that in the last six years, I was a member of the top business
team of six people that transformed a more traditional mutual
company into a highly performing stock company. The reason I
came to this company was because of the strategic component you
mention.
Fred: How is your current company
different as a result of your team's efforts since you joined,
in context of learning and knowledge management?
- How do employees
work differently today than before your organization was put
in place?
- How are business
decisions made differently?
- How is the business
more efficient and/or effective in context of knowledge management?
Hubert: Anyone,
anywhere at Clarica will tell you that the company has transformed
itself over the last five years. The first step was to adopt
a customer centric organization. We discussed what it means to
be customer-centric and spent a lot of time changing not only
our structures but also our processes to bring the company closer
to its customers. Eventually, we became the first insurance company
in North America to have every solution a customer has with us
on one integrated page on the web. The implementation of our
e-business strategy has been widely recognized as an industry
leader.
This would not have
been possible four years earlier. Interestingly, it took the
better part of four years for the customer-centric structure
we set up to bring meaningful yield. This is not development
that happens overnight however smartly or hard you work at it!
We spent a great
deal of time crafting and communicating strategy. In our climate
surveys for the last two years, 98 percent of our folks said
that they understood our strategies, agreed with them and were
committed to realize them. This was at a time when we were changing
the form of ownership, the name and the fundamental market strategy
of the firm. No small feat!! The strategic focus led us to strive
to be first in everything we were doing. It was no longer satisfactory
to be a fast follower as it had been in the past. We made speed
and agility one of our five strategic imperatives.
We also focused
a great deal on transforming the culture. Part of the knowledge
strategy up front was to wire the company as best as we could
for the seamless exchange of information and communication. We
first opened up the organization by being one of the first companies
to provide wide-open access to the web to everyone. We built
a very powerful intranet with an ability on the part of all members
to access the full knowledge base of the organization. We abolished
"training and development" and adopted e-learning through
the intranet. We created "learning sets" across the
firm that were supported through content on the web, thereby
bringing human interaction to reinforce the learning process.
Most importantly as far as the culture is concerned, we worked
to define the values of the firm for five years.
Applied work was
launched with a survey that allowed us to understand the values
of all members of the firm and gave them feedback as to what
they were. We defined the core values of the firm based on the
convergence of the values of the members and the values we needed
to aspire to build in order to realize our strategic aspirations.
We worked with individuals and business teams to make sure they
understood their values and how they related to the core values
of the firm. Decisions were discussed and sorted based on a number
of strategic factors but always tested against the core values
of the firm.
We also presented
and communicated our intentions and decisions through the lens
of our values. At the AGM of April 2001, the CEO spoke of the
character of the firm in terms of its values and the brand promise
of the firm. The brand promise was where the values of the firm
overlapped with the aspirations and the need of our customers.
It was because of this holistic approach to branding that we
had the best brand launch in the commercial history of this country.
In less than 3 years, we achieved a 70 percent level of awareness
with our new name and a 65 percent propensity to buy on the part
of those who are aware of us as a company.
The key to the success
of the work has been the values work and the various tools and
processes we put in place to make people self-initiated, interdependent
and focused on the customer. The knowledge strategy was our vessel
for making this transformation happen.
Fred: How
is your strategic responsibility impacting business strategy
of your current employer?
- How are you integrated
into the strategic planning process of the business?
- How are you related
to human resources strategy?
- How are you related
to business development strategy?
Hubert: As
the head of the Strategic Capabilities Unit, I report to the
CEO and I am a member of the strategic team that defines the
strategic direction of the firm. It has been well understood
that strategy is best defined in terms of capabilities. So, there
was a full integration of the people management strategy, the
organization strategy and the business strategy.
With the creation
of this unit, we eliminated the terms "human resources"
and moved to an integration of customer strategies and branding
with organization strategy and culture development. All of this
work facilitated through the knowledge strategy which is targeted
specifically to the acceleration of the capability development
that will give us the strategic advantage we need in the market
place.
Fred: If
tomorrow you were being recruited to lead the effort to integrate
KM into one of the top three US based insurance companies:
- What three necessary
and essential things have you learned in your KM journey that
would be part of how you led the effort today vs. five years
ago?
- What three things
would you look for in making your decision to take on the leadership
position -- things that you feel would be essential for your
success -- and be prerequisite to taking the job?
Hubert: I
would start with the values work. I would find out what could
enhance most powerfully the relationships with customers and
work from the outside-in to line everything up to having the
right impact. I would work to "wire-up" the company
through technology in a seamless way. Once we have attained a
certain level of "conductivity", I would start changing
the way work gets done by using teams that are linked virtually
in a way that the knowledge they create is preserved and made
accessible by everyone. I would seed and nurture communities
of practice systematically to provide a built-in way to generate
capability. I would then wrap this all up into the identity of
the firm with its customers. Everything has to be justified by
the need to create value for the customer. We know that when
this is achieved, we can create value for the shareholder.
Fred: The story is definitely
worth a book and unlike the personality/business cult worship
of the latest set of business books -- it is the story about
people, values, passion and transformation. I could see it take
the same readable style as Rutherford's London -- except about
real people, teams and communities -- Clarica is good people,
good business, good leadership.
It would be refreshing
to read about the role of values driving how a business does
business -- and as one of the themes -- the role of KM in the
workings of business -- not apart from, but an integral part
of doing business.
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Tangible Results Lead to
Support for Communities
Srinivasa
Murty,
Head, Knowledge Management, Hindustan Lever Limited, India:
I believe that
most business organizations would expect the knowledge management
and capability building in the communities of practice to be
demonstrated to the business through tangible results -- contribution
to growth or improvements in productivity. In the absence of
a charter articulating such tangible benefits, it is unlikely
that the organization would support such communities. While interest
groups are useful and welcome, I feel, if we are striving to
become a knowledge driven firm, communities of practice with
clear charter for performance improvement will need to be nurtured
in all core business processes / strategic priority areas. In
this context I have the following questions:
Do you see a CoP
as a key enabler for strengthening the core competencies of an
organization? How many communities of practice are there in Clarica?
Do they cover all the priority business processes?
Hubert: Yes, I do see communities
as key enablers of collaboration and learning. I see communities,
tied to a strong knowledge access platform, as the key engine
for the development of core competencies at the organizational
level and of the capabilities individuals need to perform. It
is not easy to measure these intangible contributions to the
sustainable performance of the firm but this does not mean that
they are not important to manage well.
Managers have to learn to take into account not only the financial
outcomes they strive to realize but also the factors that act
as precursors to high levels of performance, otherwise they will
never accede to superior levels of performance.
We have a large
number of different kinds of communities at Clarica. We have
hundreds of informal communities, close to 40 supported communities
and around 10 structured communities that are sponsored on an
enterprise-wide basis. These communities currently do not cover
all priority business processes but this would certainly be a
valid way to organize them.
Srini:
What would
you consider an acceptable size of a CoP for effectiveness? I
recollect Stephen Denning mentioning in one of his posts last
year that CoPs could be as large as 150 and sometimes even 500.
Hubert: Our flagship community,
which we call the Agent Network, has approximately 300 members.
They are financial planners that represent us in the community.
I do believe like Steve that you can structure relatively large
communities with the right tools and support.
Srini: What is the role of face
to face meetings of CoPs? How often do your CoPs meet face to
face? Isn't it fair to say that knowledge creation and sharing
in a CoP takes place through intense dialogue and discussion.
My experience seems to suggest that such goal directed dialogue
and discussions are difficult to manage in CoP meetings (face
to face meetings) even with 25 / 30 participants. Should the
participation in face to face meetings be limited to a subset
of the CoP members, while all members are welcome in the virtual
meeting space?
Hubert: Face
to face meetings are an important but not essential approach
to nurture and develop communities. We never had face to face
meetings of the Agent Network because they are dispersed across
the country. We did have live chats where guests participate
to real time (synchronous) sessions on a given topic. I do find
face to face meeting important to create familiarity and trust.
It is best to have these meetings up front with the creation
of a community and then intersperse the life of a community with
face-to-face events. This generally has the effect of creating
stronger bonds with the community and can be used to bring new
energy to the exchange within the community.
Of course, discussions
play a key role in communities but "productive enquiries"
are the key process. This is where a member says: "I have
just encountered something I have not seen before, has anyone
ever seen this and how did you handle it?". The responses
then come from one or more members.
The ensuing conversation that could involve several members serves
to validate the advice. Many communities are created and start
pursuing some kind of made up agenda. This is generally when
it is difficult to get things going. My advice would be to facilitate
the discussion, spur the conversation with pointed questions
of relevant issues, but let the members bring up stuff that is
relevant to their learning and getting their work done. I very
much support forming subsets on themes that a few members want
to explore deeper. The outcomes of such a discussion should be
shared with the whole group.
Srini: How does one expand from
the few CoPs seeded in the beginning to a much larger number
covering all key business processes / strategic priority areas?
I have often found that those who actively participate in a CoP
recognize its value to them and to their work. But it does not
seem to be easy to translate this into enthusing colleagues in
other functions / business processes to form a CoP. It seems
to me that the value of KM / CoP is realized mainly through the
practice. That is why, a champion and a few enthused core members
seem to be a prerequisite for starting up a CoP.
Hubert: I
totally agree with you that you need to cultivate champions from
within the communities you are trying to foster. Based on my
experience, external prodding generally leads nowhere. I find
that you need to put the framework in place, the software tools
required and get the concept blessed by senior management and
then make it available as it becomes relevant to groups of people
who share common development and learning needs. This is work
that needs to take advantage of opportunities as they present
themselves. The success of one community can entice others to
come forward. Of course, you have to be careful not to put a
certain community up the organizational flag pole because it
could be counterproductive. The key, as you put it, is to find
champions from within the community and support them in making
things happen.
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Answers Spur More Questions
The concise response
provided by Hubert raised further questions as KM practitioners
sought to compare Hubert's success story at Clarica to their
own experience. Though not answered directly as in the above
posts these insights serve as a link to the parallel debate that
was being undertaken on training and development.
CoPs: How
to Maintain Momentum?
Jack
Vinson,
KM, Pharmacia,
pondered on how to maintain momentum over long term:
Thanks for your
reply to Fred. It was one of the best descriptions of why strategy
and vision are critical to the success of an organization. It
was also good to hear that these things take time -- four years
for the customer-centric structure to yield tangible results.
We are in the early stages of the strategy activity, and it is
clear that this will be a long road.
How do you keep
the organization moving forward when it takes so long to get
where you are going? Do you instill the innate belief that this
will work? Or were you able to develop simple metrics to help
people see that the work was making progress?
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CoPs or
Learning; Which Came First
John
Barrett,
Principal, ITI Associates,
queried which came first? CoPs or learning?:
In reading your
posts particularly as you describe the role of CoPs in regard
to learning at Clarica, can you tell us what was the sequence.
Were CoPs already in existence first supported at Clarica and
then you made the connection between learning and them, or did
you focus on collaborative learning first and then you went looking
for a vehicle to support that?
The root of this
question is actually more fundamental. How do we develop a compelling
reason for management to want to support communities? I suggest
we need to answer questions such as: 1.) What will they provide
that I can't get from our current organization? 2.) Why do we
need what they will provide now? (can't this wait until next
quarter, year. . .?) 3.)How do I compare the benefits of CoPs
to other projects where I will need to take the resources from?
I would love to know of your experiences in addressing this at
Clarica or other organizations.
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Legal and Ethical
Limits to Sharing
Mary
Beth Thornton,
Director, Global Client Services, AC Nielsen, outlined legal
and ethical limits to sharing from her experience:
I see many similarities
between my company and Clarica; AC Nielsen has gone through a
transformation of sorts over the last five years. We have made
significant progress toward adopting a customer centric organization.
We've spent a great deal of time crafting and communicating strategy.
There has been a cultural shift, as evidenced by continuously
improving associate satisfaction scores approaching a "World
Class" level.
But, the elements of culture
related to sharing -- of information, experience, knowledge,
success stories, best practices -- don't get the attention needed
to support and make viable an effective knowledge strategy.
It's happening in
pockets -- by departments and individuals who understand the
benefits of knowledge, learning exchange and "just do it"
- but it is not holistically woven into the people management,
organizational and business strategies of AC Nielsen.
Can you say more
about how Clarica (to quote you from earlier) "first opened
up the organization by being one of the first companies to provide
wide-open access to the web to everyone. We built a very powerful
intranet with an ability on the part of all members to access
the full knowledge base of the organization"? Specifically,
how did you deal with the people, process and culture aspects
of assembling the full knowledge base of the organization?
Or, of sharing confidential
content? There is a great deal of highly confidential, Client
specific information; knowledge that AC Nielsen must legally
and ethically protect. This is ingrained in our culture, to the
point that it inhibits sharing even among our associates . .
. yet leveraging this most important, most tacit, most difficult
to capture, Client focused knowledge and learning is our vessel
for value creation -- the most powerful business purpose for
a knowledge strategy in the first place.
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Interrelationship:
Knowledge, Learning, Values, Branding
Charles
Savage, President, Knowledge Era Enterprises, Munich, Germany: Regarding Interrelationships
Between Knowledge, Learning, Values & Branding:
As I understand
it, you have understood the integral interrelationships between
knowledge, learning, values and branding. Am I not right in suspecting
you have approached "branding" from a learning and
values perspective, instead of from a telling and teaching perspective?
If so, the power of learning in Clarica is not necessarily "how
to do things," although this is important, but rather "how
do we connect where meaning means something?"
Did you not use
your values approach to discover what customers value? Did you
not "learn" how to listen to these values in building
a way to use Clarica's capabilities to help your customers' live
their values?
You have created
something more than just the classic CoPs, your communities have
reached beyond natural boundaries, to, in an inclusive way, reach
out and listen to those whom you do not meet at the water cooler.
Is this right?
To get to where
you are at Clarica, there was a lot of "unlearning"
to do, was there not? And secondly, you work on values, helped
turn the noun into a verb, where people were able to actively
value customers, as well as one another. This is an affirming
process and engenders a confidence in oneself so that I want
to learn, and I am ready to learn from you. Might this have been
happening?
Part II: Communities of
Practice, Forums for Learning 
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